Some Random Thoughts on Dolphin
I’ve been using Dolphin for my file manager, rather than Konqueror, for about a week now. These are just some random things I’ve thought about while adjusting my behavior and work process.
Web browsing and file management are definitely two separate kinds of activities, but what about the inbetween cases with using Google Docs or viewing wiki/documentation? I don’t use Google Docs very often, but for someone who has many online documents, I think it would be a difficult separation between reading a PDF accessed from your harddrive in Dolphin and an HTML or PDF file accessed from the web in Konqueror.
It took a while for me to disassociate web browsing from file management. It was nice only having one window to manage web and file documents and I miss having tabs to separate folders I want to access. The multiple panes isn’t doing it for me, I want my tabs back (not multiple windows).
What I haven’t been able to get use to is going back to Konqueror for web shortcuts. I view these as task functions (such as checking the weather, googling, or looking up an article in wikipedia) than just browing content on the internet. I wonder if these things could be replaced by a Plasma widget.
The new bookmark navigation model is great, but I think the way to toggle location editing needs improved. The button to change the address from bookmark to text entry is separated from the address by the drop-down bookmark list which makes for an angry Gestalt. What about swapping the bookmark and location edit buttons or putting the location edit button at the end of the location address? Also, I felt myself wanting to click-to-edit the bookmark bar instead of using click-to-navigation up a directory. This just may be from my still getting used to Dolphin, but I wonder if there is a way introduce that kind of interaction while keeping the current click-to-navigate interaction.
I love the Dolphin bookmarks. I know you could bookmark locations and use them in Konqueror, but I like how it is displayed by default and easy to add to the list. I don’t know if I like linking the icon in the Edit Bookmark dialog, especially since it is so small (has anyone else not noticed it right away)? Also, will the bookmarks in Dolphin be linked to the bookmarks in the File Open dialog? It only makes sense.
seele :: Nov.16.2007 :: General, KDE/Kubuntu :: 36 Comments »
Well, I have something to say about that.
I recently upgraded my Ubuntu to Gutsy.
After about 1h of work, I did the best thing one can do to improve life as a whole:
sudo apt-get remove dolphin
My life is way much easyer now.
I don’t know why people waste time developing a NEW application when the old one just do a BETTER work. Really, I just can’t understand. Maybe I’m dumb.
“Maybe I’m dumb.”
Maybe ;] you could always stay with DOS as a “filemanager”, old one but good one :)
@Darth Bates: you are not the target audience… ’nuff said.
“sudo apt-get remove dolphin”
Couldn’t agree more. I don’t know enough about the internals of KDE to say whether or not Konqueror was terminally broken, but I’m afraid that to me, Dolphin seems a step backwards, not forwards.
I think Dolphin is a huge step forward. It seems “cleaner” somehow, and more responsive, and I like the Unix mentality that an app should do one thing, and do it well (Konqueror was in that respect some kind of an abomination for me).
It took me maybe a couple of weeks to use alt+f2 instead of f6 to go to url’s, but I don’t understand what you mean about Google Docs. The only way I can make any sense of what you say, would be if suddenly Konqueror would stop using kparts to inline for example pdf’s, but that seems rather unrelated to dolphin.
@Darth Bates & Zucc:
I felt the same way the first few days I was using it. However, I don’t think one day of learning a new application is going to undo the habits and work processes you have developed after years of using another application. That is why I gave it a week before I formulated a position.
I don’t think habits with any application that is essential to almost every task will be undone overnight and I don’t think it is reasonable to think they will be.
@martin
You need to use a web browser to use Google Docs. Any management of or access to those documents are done in Konqueror the web browser instead of Dolphin the file manager. It is just one of a few exceptions where the file management activity cannot be separated out of Konqueror (which was one of the purposes of Dolphin).
The entire KDE project needs more apps like Dolphin.
Why so?
The applications have all the necassary features, they simply don’t have an efficient interface (a few of them, anyway).
Take in point Konqueror. It’s interface was a mess no matter how you configured it. It lacked something for web browsing, and it lacked something for file browsing. These are two seperate tasks, with very different needs in the interface and seperate functionalities.
For people complaining about it, it seems they are long time Konqueror users. Their problem is that they are used to working with it, not that Dolphin is not good enough. Regardless, if KDE4 is to progress, it needs radical change and more apps like Dolphin - easy to use, made for the task at hand and not overwhelming the user with options.
I don’t understand the relevance of Google docs either.. Google docs is a website, not some inbetween entity. Just because you can have files there doesn’t make it a file manager. Konqueror wouldn’t help there.
Personally I love Dolphin for the most part. Even the KDE3 version (without even the folder tree) is better than Konq. First I thought I couldnt live without my folder tree on the left, which I’ve used since windows 3.1, but once i didn’t have it, it was actually much nicer. I put the most important folders in the bookmarks list, and the rest I don’t need to see 99% of the time. I also don’t miss tabs at all. Tabs are a pain in the ass for a file manager.. You can’t easily drag and drop between them, and I generally only work with 2 or 3 directories at a time, so the split view is excellent, or I can open 2 windows. The web is a very different environment, where I might have 20-40 tabs open at a time.
@Darth, I just tried Gutsy and agree, and the same for Kubuntu Control Center. Sadly, I also read it will be the official KDE 4 Control Center.
KControl is better, just because some people can’t understand what a tree structure is you shouldn’t shove an icon catalog into your user’s throats.
The real problem of KControl, that is, complex, crowded setting panes aren’t addressed.
Really, I guess KDE 4.1 can be a lot better than 4.0, just because by then a lot of bad choices will backfired, then be revised and corrected or reverted.
KDE 2 vision was amazing. Simply amazing. KDE 3 didn’t change it much, just added polish. Now, I’m amazed how KDE 4 developers don’t realize this, and try to “fix” that vision, and even try using so poor replacements.
Those who complain about Dolphin in Kubuntu: I can’t understand why they put Dolphin as the default file manager in Gutsy, as the KDE3 counterpart isn’t near as good as Dolphin in KDE4.
While I liked Dolphin (KDE4 version) very much, there are things I’ll miss. Tabs is such an example, even if I can live without them.
But the location bar doesn’t work as I expect, dunno if it’s a feature or bug; I haven’t found a equivalent to Ctrl+L in Konqueror for example (in Dolphin it only focuses the location field, not selecting the text like Firefox nor cleared the field like in Konqueror).
Switching to editing mode it pretty straightforward (for example, click to the right of the “buttons”), but I want it to revert to navigation mode after you’ve entered a location and pressed return, or if it loses focus. Otherwise I think the navigation mode is pretty useless. I like the idea, but usually I just enter the URL directly. I don’t want to change back to navigation mode manually every time.
Hm. I think words aren’t enough to describe my thoughts, maybe a mockup will do…
Quite interesting. it It seams to me that Dolphin will split the community. For me Konqueror is one of the most advanced tools out there and I can understand everyone who sticks with it. There are certain things that are done best in Konqueror. Even though I have used GNOME for the last 4 month I had to install Konqueror because it is such a powerful tool that I can handle certain things. So yes, Konqueror is awesome and powerful and all this but it’s advantages are also it’s disadvantages.
I love Konqueror as a filemanager and as a Browser but why the hell doesn’t it recognize that you are surfing the web or that you brows your harddisk? If I open the Web-profile and I press my home-butten I want to go to my start-page not my /home-folder. These are things that make Konqueror pain in the ass. So even if it’s a cool feature to put browser and filemanager in one program it can be also confusing and annoying.
For the daily use and the average user is dolphin the best choice and I think it was necessary to add a program like that. But for the more sophisticated stuff and the people who just can’t say goodbey is Konqueror also quite good.
Like in GNOME right know for me I use Nautilus most of the time which is fast and can do most of the stuff. But if I want to have ALL THE MIGHTY POWER, I still choose Konqueror. And that is what I’m going to do with Dolphin.
I really don’t use Konqueror or Dolphin that much, the only thing I have been using them for is when I want to open documents, pdf files, browse image thumbnails etc.
As to whether Dolphin is that much of an improvement over Konqueror as a filemanager I’m not sure, but I really miss the tabs, and the focus vs. selecting with Ctrl+L is also pretty annoying. Since d3lphin was introduced in Gutsy I’ve been using Konsole and ‘kfmclient exec’ to open my documents.
I know that the KDE4 version of Dolphin has some improvements over the KDE3 version, and the feature I like the most is the embedded terminal. As it works right now, the terminal changes directory when you change directory in the dolphin view. It would be nice to have the other way around as well, that the view changes directory when I change directory in the terminal. If that feature is implemented for KDE4 I will use Dolphin when KDE4 is released, else I will stay with Konsole and kfmclient. And since Konsole also is getting better with KDE4 then maybe that isn’t so bad ;)
Yep, if you use alt+f2 for launching web shortcuts, you’ll find it a lot less traumatic. I guess for consistency you could always have konqueror launch PDFs externally, as I guess dolphin does (I can’t remember right now). Personally though, I like the consistency *difference* of having local stuff come up in different windows, while browsing is always within a (possibly tabbed) browser.
Dolphin seems like a good start, but from my use of it, it’s not ready yet. Konqueror is still much snappier and responsive. Very annoying flicker in Dolphin.
…It was nice only having one window to manage web and file documents and I miss having tabs to separate folders I want to access. The multiple panes isn’t doing it for me, I want my tabs back (not multiple windows)….
Why not use Krusader and have the best of both worlds? Dual panes with tabs that are persistent across sessions.
apt-get remove dolphin
I’m not going to frustrate myself with huge toolbar, two huge sidepanels on both sides and measly window to see the actual content, it’s even worse than nautilus and yes I’m bitter
@k
Now that’s just childish. You can easily turn off the sidepanels if you don’t like them. I turned off both in the beginning, but eventually realized that the bookmarks on the left hand side are really convenient.
@martin:
> I like the Unix mentality that an app should do one thing, and do it well
> (Konqueror was in that respect some kind of an abomination for me).
I guess it depends on your point of view. Konqueror is basically an Framework for displaying KParts. In this sense you could see Konqueror either as “Konsole” or a shell like bash.
In a terminal you do “ls/mv/cp/..” to do your filemanagment or use (e)links/lynx to browse the web. That’s where the KParts play it’s role an do the “Unix” philisophy. Hence such claims are quite narrow as there is really a granularity perspective on the whole Konqueror thing.
And those session related things Baumranger talks about, is the basic action that Konqueror as the master of the KParts should really do best (and there is of course room for improvements here).
In the end Dolphin has to be a good KPart and will hopefully reunify Konqueror and Dolphin to a certain degree.
For the other note:
I for myself use Krusader as I like the keyboard-only navigation and this is what Dolphin (and Konqueror) are really bad at, at the moment.
I only use Konqueror for it’s good thumbnail operations and it’s good tab support (which is very important for _me_).
@metellius
yes I could remove both sidepanels, I could right-click on the toolbar and choose text position “icons only”, I could add the “Up” arrow and “Home” icon to the toolbar, but I still can’t “merge” address bar and toolbar, I still can’t preview text/html files inside filebrowser, I can’t use tabs
dolphin=konqueror with less features (there is no excuse to leave out TABS) and bad (imo) default settings (I should be able to tell what the file is, what application will open it just by looking at the icon - I don’t need the extra sidepanel on the right for that; furthermore - I can see the logic why left sidebar with “bookmarks” isn’t the navigation panel, because of the address bar properties, however this becomes issue with “more folders than one” inside the current folder - in that case the old navigation method used in left sidepanel was better because you could see all the folders inside the current folder)
@k
Exactly, dolphin is just that. And that’s because konqueror is absoletely bloated with features. I realize we have differing personalities here, I enjoy a cleaner, simpler interface with the things I need at this moment.
If I remember correctly, windows had an interesting approach to this with the explorer/ie combination. When in file browser mode, menues and toolbars were related to exactly this. Once an url was typed in, the interface changed to a more surfing-related IE interface.
I believe there’s two ways of doing this:
Either keep surfing and file management separate as kubuntu and kde4 are heading towards now, or clean up konqueror so that when doing file management I get the interface related to that, and not endless preferences regarding cookies, internet security etc etc (the approach described above)
> I like the Unix mentality that an app should do one thing, and do it well
This mentality was good for shell paradigm. Bash scripting could relies many apps that “do well one thing” in order to do powerfull things. I think it was the real goal.
But with gui paradigm, kpart was the better idea i never see. one app (kpart) in one tab. kpart is for me unix mentality extention in gui land. Konqueror “was” -is- the better proof of concept.
I want and will continue to use Konqueror and use tabs for browsing at the same time, in the same window web, ftp, local files, pdf and what i can if i want, thank you konqueror for your power, and your inovative browsing. By by old dolphin.
Sorry for my bad english, it isn’t my language.
@metellius
a few more annoyances about konqueror:
-bookmarks aren’t separated for filemanagement and webbrowsing profile
-history is shared with web/filemanagement profile
-does not hide “~backup” files with “.hidden” files (this applies to dolphin also btw)
-can’t navigate to “./folders” in sidepanel on the left
and now back to dolphin:
-the toolbar has too much space unused, may as well merge with the address bar
-great we aren’t webbrowser, so we got rid of shared history and bookmarks
-but why no tabs, what do you have against the tabs? tabs are something every filemanager should offer, most users know the concept anyway… the split view isn’t that great on smaller resolutions
-why are there so few actions available with right-click on the file? –> treating users as dumb, boring persons?
Hello Seele.
Talking about usability.
Today I was update and then run KDE4 in OpenSuse.
Looking in Gwenview.
The kde3 version in full screen mode add rotate arrows.
KDE4 version miss them.
I think rotate arrows are very important in anytype presentation.
@k
Yes, dolphin still has a lot of room of improvement. Rumor has it that the kde4 version provides a lot more than the one currently in kubuntu.
If you’re referring to the actions submenu - this is probably because the konqueror actions haven’t been properly included in the package or something. I read somewhere that dolphin can use konqueror action-desktop-files as well.
About tabs, are you really sure you need them? Leo above here made the point that “Tabs are a pain in the ass for a file manager.. You can’t easily drag and drop between them, and I generally only work with 2 or 3 directories at a time, so the split view is excellent, or I can open 2 windows. ”
Although I wouldn’t go as far as calling them pain in the ass, I would definitely say that tabs aren’t a necessity when managing files. You’re usually either browsing a single folder, or copying files from one folder to another. The last case, where you are copying files from one folder to several other folders (at different locations) is rather rare.
Example: take the overused-as-an-example ipod. For most actions, such as pausing the current track or queuing up a song, there is just one way to do it. And there lies a lot of thought behind this one way of doing it, as it often happens to be the most intuitive way of doing it. This way the user gets pushed into a usage pattern that works well together.
With Konqueror and kde there are tons of options and ways of doing things, and users (at least me) require years to get a solid overview over the different ways of doing things and finding an efficient usage pattern.
Dolphin seems to be heading towards the former, which I am quite pleased with.
Man, I rambled again didn’t I. :)
I’ve only used Dolphin a couple of times, but it just seemed foreign to me. Konqueror, while far from being my favorite web browser, is a good file manager and an excellent FTP app, and I can’t see why I’d want to switch.
Challenge: Somebody out there who uses an likes Dolphin, write up an article for Debian Package of the Day and share the love. Let people know why we should give it a try.
Hi Celeste,
as maintainer of Dolphin I would have appreciated if you tell your readers that you talk about the KDE 3 version of Dolphin, not the KDE 4 version.
The KDE 3 version of Dolphin has not been developed anymore since more than one year and is not comparable anymore to the KDE 4 version. The KDE 4 version shows many improvements (e. g. new navigation bar, bookmarks, integrated terminal, column view, types, docks, …), but the comments on this blog indicate that the people assume you are talking about the KDE 4 version… (and even for me as maintainer was not clear about which version you are talking).
It would be nice if you could mention this in a small “update”-note :-)
Thanks!
Peter
To all the Dolpin Developers: PLEASE give us tabs in Dolphin! I like Dolphin very much, but as long as there are no tabs, I simply can’t use it for my daily work. Please add at least an option for enablng tabs, when you don’t enable it by default.
Dolphin is the correct way to go.
Once in a while, when the programs reached perfection, new opensource coders need some new projects.
The only logical way ahead is to tear one program (e.g. a good example Konqueror) that can do many things, into little programs to do many things.
OR
Glue many little programs to do many things into a single program that can do many things.
Open source is about choice ….
and the option to spend time wasting on stupid (my project) projects …
instead of making existing (their project) projects better
“Take in point Konqueror. It’s interface was a mess no matter how you configured it. It lacked something for web browsing, and it lacked something for file browsing. These are two seperate tasks, with very different needs in the interface and seperate functionalities.”
I use Konqueror as filemanager and web browser and i have very different interface for both usage. Different window size, different buttons etc. I dont need anything else. Dolphin is just in the way. It is great for new user but it’s not enought for poweruser. That’s why it’s not going to be aimed for power user, just for new “simple” users.
Konqueror needs few tweaks like better separation for web and file management. both could have different bookmarks and you could save more things to profiles than what you can save now.
And unix idea “one app for one thing and let it do it well” dont work when we are speaking from GUI applications. For console apps, it’s work great, you need one good tar and other good *zip and you get great tar.gz/bzip package.
But on GUI side, you just end up to have photoshop kind UI what just dont work, it’s too bloated if you try to force different users to one app. (graphic designers, videoeditors, 3D modelers, photographers).
And now Adobe is fixing this by allowing more configs to photoshop so user can select only those tools what they want.
I think, konqueror should be tweaked easy to learn (or use) for firsttimers, and still allow powerfull configurations under skin so when user wants something new options, he can get it and no need to change application or first when start using new app, hiding those icons and buttons what dont need.
Gnome is good for new users, it is clean and simple. But when user needs more, you cant find them and you need to start using other apps/desktops.
KDE just have too much configs by default, just hide most of them what ain’t needed by new user and allow power users to take all power out of it what they need and know.
@metellius:
“About tabs, are you really sure you need them? Leo above here made the point that “Tabs are a pain in the ass for a file manager.. You can’t easily drag and drop between them, and I generally only work with 2 or 3 directories at a time, so the split view is excellent, or I can open 2 windows. ””
I love tabs, i love web browser where is tabs, i love konsole because i can use tabs and i love KDE/Gnome because i have virtual desktops.
I do many things by sametime and moving files between tabs isn’t broblem for me. I open new tab for other directory much more often than press ctrl+shift+L (and later R) to get twin panel for konqueror to move files. But i use ctrl+shift+L for webpages when i reply to something because i can read other post sametime and type my answer to them. Just like now, i can see what is on upper page and what i type.
And konqueror just allows (almoust) everything what dolphin does, but not by default!
I can get same buttons to konqueror as dolphin, i can have twin(or more) panels and
bookmarks on side. I never understand those who want file preview to sidepanel when you have them on fileview itself, how much help there is to have 45×45 thumbnail on side and not 40×40px thumbnail on every file?
Only thing what i can find intressting from dolphin is, it has “nice” addressbar”.
And i dont like it if i move outside of home or few directory deeper file structure what happens many times. Then it starts slowing down me.
But that’s why dolphin is aimed foor new users and not for powerusers who already knows how they want to work.
“With Konqueror and kde there are tons of options and ways of doing things, and users (at least me) require years to get a solid overview over the different ways of doing things and finding an efficient usage pattern.”
Thats why i LOVE KDE and Konqueror. Because they gives me option, change and way to work by different way. One way isn’t best.
Many usability experts cant say what is best for everyone. There is left handed, one handed and no handed users who dont think same way, they cant use things by same way and thats why there isn’t one best way to do something.
Usability experts can polish things something is easy to learn or it is easier to use. But they cant say what is best for everyone, for most people they can give easy answer. It’s like building a cash machine (that where you put credit car in and you get money if you have on your account ;-) ), it must be simple and fast to use. But, it must allow different people to use it. It height and size must be checked for different users, like those who has wheelchair and cant stand, cannot use most of them. yes, they are represents small amount of users but something should not be build so 5-10% users cant use it.
In graphic design it is important to know that there are people who are color blind, so you cant make warning sign if you use just green and red paint on it.
That’s why there is no way that dolphin could take konqueror places or dolphin should be forget. It seems to be easier to hide not-so-needed options from konqueror and littlebit tweak it than designt two application what does same thing and such powerstyle as konqueror currently.
I like dolphin, but i dont use it. I dont suggest it and i dont know anyone who likes to use it. But i have seen it does it joob to allow simple file management ;-)
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If you have one app that does everything, browsing, editing, file management, all in different tabs…
… what the hell would the point of the taskbar and window manager be? Just to keep your uberapplication company?
“Gnome is good for new users, it is clean and simple. But when user needs more, you cant find them and you need to start using other apps/desktops.”
Making the interface simpler doesn’t mean Gnome-fying it.
It’s the biggest criticism of KDE/Konqueror fans have of simpifying the interface, but it just isn’t true.
It doesn’t matter how advanced the application is, the interface HAS to be streamlined. This is what any decent app designer will tell you. Konqueror is the perfect example of an app that was the jack of all trades, master of none. The more apps like Dolphin are made, the less people will start being turned off by KDE’s design.
You don’t get the point! If you don’t want to use tabs - fine. But WHY shouldn’t a user who definitely WANTS to use tabs get tabs? What’s the point in this “We know best what the user wants and don’t give him the option to use other things”? That’s why I hate Gnome. There’s always this ” We know what’s good, and you have to use it.”
It’s not about simplifying the user interface, its about taking away the options to use it the way the user likes it. In the GNOME-World, this is actually called “simplifying”. But that has nothing to do with making it easier for the user to do things (See Nautilus for example)